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Where's the stories about our new treasury secretary who signed for money given to him by his employer for payment of taxes, then didn't pay them. We're now at the height of hipocracy
In a real capitalist world you fools would have been routed out and fired long ago. Better hurry up and pay the man back before the Bank of America becomes the Gosbank of America Komrades!
A top agency trader at a million a year is a hell of a lot more valuable and harder to replace than a bunch of TelePrompter reading clowns who get a "tingle up their legs" at the empty rhetoric of some half ass Chicago lawyer turned Messiah.......
Otherwise, cry me a river.
By the way, the reason you haven't seen more investigative reporting in the big media is because they are owned and controlled by these same big corps. Thank goodness the light of day is shining on these evil demons in spite of that!
(we don't want that)
Imperialism - the few closest to the money getting vast sums and the majority getting little or none
(this is what we currently have on Wall Street)
Capitalism - everyone getting paid based on how well they perform
(this is what we want)
Big bonuses are ok if the employees are well paid, the shareholders are well paid, and the net profits are substantial. If any one of thes is not the case, then bonuses are not in order because a poor job was done. No excuses.
As a shareholder I deserves to get paid hndsomely because I've risked my hardearned money. The company workers [regardless of position should be paid a decent compensation] otherwise, if they feel that they are not being compensated according to their worth, go out and start your own comapny with your money and make whatever you are capable of. When you risk your own money no one will ever be lamenting of what you make. I dare say that they would not be making a lot of the types of decisions that they make with our money.
Even at a fraction of what they are being bonused at would be excellent compensation in my opinion if they want to deal with other peoples money.... otherwise go out and use your own.
Indeed, I observe statements indicating a sense of entitlement to these bonuses and other perks in spite of the burden placed on the taxpayers. This seems to be conveyed with some degree of impunity.
Let us note that this $18B+, if spread amongst the entire population of the U.S. equates to $70+ for every man, woman & child in the U.S. Tell me now how many 'needy', 'talented' bankers & investment personnel this was actually disbursed amongst. some comments to address this may help the large number of middle class taxpayers who are funding your businesses, thereby preventing the possibility of insolvency.
Help the average taxpayer understand in more quantitative terms your "need"; terms that they can understand.
I say that if you "need" the money of the taxpayers, then it'll be on the terms that they want, and if you don't like it, then you can walk.
I would, frankly, be more concerned with your rhetoric not Rich's. Rich speaks as someone who is capable of independent thought. You seem to echo a whole ideology that is only capable of blind obedience. ie; "if Americans do it, it must be good and right". Greed, while not exclusively American, is certainly not something to emulate and when the politics of the 21st century are haves vs the have nots, the "have nots" are going to use the unbridled greed of the "haves" to recruit people to thier side. Lastly, your entire diatribe is discredited when you make reference to whether or not someone who, presumably, served our country, mine and yours, honorably by saying he had sex with the civilians he encountered. This last statement makes me wonder about the simplistic level your thinking must operate on.
I can tell you that eight descendent lines of my family have been in this country since 1635 and have fought in every war without ever threatening to shoot a fellow citizen, except in the Civil War, no matter how much he or she was despised. Let's exhibit a little more class and civility.
And by the way, I apologize for my remark on Chris' sexual activity in Iraq. I don't know Chris. In fact, I really know nothing about him. It really had nothing to do with his point about the excessive greed and even immorality of some American financial executives.
I just thought he shouldn't have said anything about the morality of the American Housewife. It was a sexist remark. What about the morality of the American Husband, or the morality of the American Teenager or, for that matter, the morality of the American GI? We could go on and on. And what about the morality of Al Queda?
Incidentally, I happen to agree with Obama that the recent bonuses received by Wall Street executives whose companies received government bailout money is not only shameful but unacceptable. In fact, I think they should all return every penny in bonus money received. As for those who worked for companies who received no government money, it is none of our business about the who, what, why, when and where of their bonuses. It is as simple as that.
Calling Obama a socialist in this climate smacks of someone who believes they are part of some sort of monarchy.
Thom Simmons
Kapiti Coast
Uh? What?
Isn't this the guy that just had one of the single most expensive innaguration's ... ever? How many dollars did he accept from CEO's and presidents of Corporations?
$200,000 from Com Edison? Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal? How much did he receive from Corning again? How about all that money from Verizon? AT&T?
And this guy is going to come along and decry bonuses? This guy? Seriously?
Sort of funny, since President Obama is using a play from Keynes (one of the biggest neo-mercantilistists ever) with his infrastructure play. It wasn't his idea. It was Keynes.
It's socialism if we question their bonuses, but what is it called when our taxes bail out their industries,like France?
Good policy.
Time for the sans-culottes.
Put a few heads on spikes.
There was a reason we had a revolution once and the real Americans will stand up to this socialist agenda. If you want to have socialism, go to Europe.
Answer these questions... how long has Obama been in office?
When did the first half of the 'stimulus' (quite humorous that it's actually called that) go out?
Who was president then? Who's idea was the 'stimulous'?
Bush, my friend, your so-called NeoCon president is responsible for the 'stimulus', now do you only watch Fox News and regurgitate what's fed to you, or are you capable of critical thought?
We have lawmakers who don't pay taxes, and giant Corporations bleeding us dry and all I see on here are cliches, cliches, cliches.
The lawmakers and the Wall Street Execs better tread carefully, 'cos if a revolution was ever needed, now looks like as good a time as any. I'm feeling rather French at the moment... as in, the French Revolution. Those in power didn't fancy the result then...perhaps those in power need a taste of that now.
Let me just add...if I end up getting laid-off this year, I'm headin' over to the wealthy part of town...do a little redistribution of my own.
laid away in my deep-freeze when you cross town to throw your "weight" around.
It's time Wall Street does what the rest of us have to do for years: W O R K!
America and the world voted for these changes, not to promote any political concept theories but to rid of the self-serviant greed that has crippled our current ability to make an honest living and help our childrens future. You Wallstreet morons have now violated our families with your actions and your attempt to cover your scene of the crime!
The comments here are completely unfocused and mostly misinformed. The media is also completely misleading in their presentation of bonus and compensation. Some of it is understandable as the concept of bonus on Wall Street is misleading to begin with. It is critical to make a distinction between senior management that made disastrous choices affecting an entire industry, and rank and file members that hardly can be thought of as "greedy" Wall Streeters. Secondly, it is important to realize that the word bonus is completely inappropriate, it is a part and parcel of a person's pay.
As I opened, this variable add on, in the eyes of many, should be zero and I am not here to argue otherwise. But to make sweeping statements are foolish at best. It is an age old argument of "what is he/she worth?". Is a teacher making $80K to work 9 months a year "worth" it? Is Brittney Spears "worth" the money? Is it really worth $400 to get someone to style your hair? The market cannot answer everything, but this is where it can. Your value system is represented every time you pay something. The market makes it possible for people with fundamentally different views on many different things to agree on a price. I may dislike that some overweight pitcher gets paid multiple millions to eat sesame seeds in the bull pen, but I am not out to set his salary as no one's pursuits are immune to this form of scrutiny. Instead, I am more concerned whether the prices we pay are set in a transparent and truly equitable way.
I believe the working man's frustration (if I may, tho I'm certainly not representing all working folk), or, one of the working man's frustrations is the millions folks making the shoddy decisions made off with. Yes, they were fired, they lost their job, but when they were making risky investments, they were being compensated quite handsomely for it. So they therefore they 'lose' their job, but I'm not sure they're waiting in line at the unemployment office hoping to be able to feed their family, or pay their rent (or mortgage). That's where the disconnect comes in.
Those left in Wall Street are left with a shoddy image to bear...but when my Pops puts off retirement for a couple years based on the current economic drudgery (the man doesn't call in sick and has been at it for 40 years), I'm not sure I feel too sorry for those left with a shoddy image as their burden to bear.
Many on Wall Street have grown accustomed to a certain culture and pay. I find it equally loathsome that there is some belief they work harder than the average Joe. That argument is as foolish as saying all Wall Streeters are greedy and should be burned at the stake. Let me be clear that I will leave for greener pastures, *if* it is available. If it is not, then I will have to adjust, and I will. My hope is for whatever the future brings in terms of my own compensation, it will continue to be market driven and set by transparent means. Paying someone like me is quite transparent. You can go to a job board and see what range of salary and bonus I get, and then compete for my job. If enough can do it as well or better, my stock goes down, it's that simple. With a senior exec, it's not so simple. There is no job board for that. These are closed door hires, opaque to say the least. You have an armada of lawyers, HR cronies, and board lackeys ready to define success in a way that makes it nearly inevitable.
I think going forward instead of trying to rip apart a system that has worked for more than 90% of the last 150 years, rip off our nose to spite our faces, we should work for transparency. I am uncertain of the ideal or best approach going forward, but I am absolutely sure that increased regulation will do little to nothing. If your goal is simply to make Wall Street less rich, then it's easy, you don't even need regulation. Simply install government mandates on institutions, have them perform their will, and limit their rewards. To my mind, forcing transparency at all levels, increasing accountability at especially senior levels, and preventing any firm to reach the moral hazard scale like Fannie/Freddie/Citi/BofA/etc, would be far more prudent a fix than going in with a hack saw because people are calling for blood.
For those that like to think Revolutionary, don't use the French, that is misplaced historic nostalgia. If you think it was a success, you perhaps should reread their history. Do you think "Égalité" came to them after they beheaded Louis XVI and company? It ushered in a reign of terror like most bloody revolutions do. Since then, the French have had 5 republics (i.e. 5 constitutions). Their class struggles have never gone away as is evident any time the government fails to provide some entitlement or service to the satisfaction of "les citoyens".
I understand that certain historic blunders call for historically harsh measures. However, the law of unintended consequences never fails to exact its toll. Unfortunately, reason never wins the day, and the more likely event of hasty, reactionary events and policies will create an inefficiency that will last for decades to come.
Objection. Assuming facts not in evidence.
Equitable my eye... those who run 'the system' pushed it to excess and both the good and the bad pursued it... they all deserve the blame. What galls is that when we extend the hand of bailout... everyone should immediately terminate the outflow of extravagance, of bonus, of profit even, for we are paying to save them, not for them to profit as usual... no dividends, no 'bonus' and yes, practically no pay for those in the upper half who have more than enough money built up from previous excess. Instead we hear of hundreds of thousand dollar meetings, bonuses, purchases of jets, dividends, acquisitions of other companies with money meant to be loaned... loaned, not for purchases. The new era should set pay... and people should earn it, and never should the captain partake of the meat until the crew and passengers say 'hear, hear'. We shouldn't have to 'bribe' talent to work a job, we should simply straight pay them... and dock them when they underperform if we're going to bonus their 'premium' 'elite' talent when the economy just happens to go their way. Yes those gods of capitalism sure deserve to live in ultra-rare aire... and their underlings too. For the rest of us, when the company does poorly... IT GOES OUT OF BUSINESS AND SO DO WE. Pampered ......!
And I am a capitalist to the bone but what these Wall Street idiots have done over the past 25 years is nothing short of fraud. They should all be glad they're not going to jail.
And when they come begging to the Public trough, throwing out the term 'socialism' in response to justified public outcry is a joke. Their aim is to 'capitalize' the winnings and 'socilalize' their losses.
But the jig is up and their time is over. What we need now are true Corporate leaders with intelligence and integrity to restore free market capitalism to what it truly ought ot be: the exchange of one's best efforts for the best efforts of others.
Cheers everyone!
So, I'm all for letting the market decide, as a few here have suggested. Don't pay a penny in bonuses at companies who take government bailout money. If the employees are unhappy about that (see any Econ 101 text), they can look for a job to see how the market values their talents. If they can find a job that has the same or better base pay, the "guaranteed" bonus in question, and all the other benefits they so obviously deserve, then they should take it. Otherwise, stop telling the rest of us how important it is to retain your sorry posterior at the compensation you require to keep you from going elsewhere. You are worth whatever the law of supply and demand says you're worth...not just what you say you're worth. By the way, the supply and demand curves have shifted recently, so the new intersection point is where you should be focused, not where they intersected before the meltdown.
Actually, for some people in some industries, bonuses are explicitly stated as being part of income in the employment agreement. That being said, I agree that if your company needs a bailout, you shouldn't expect to receive that bonus.
What really galls us is not the token cash doled out to the peons, but the obscene amounts given to the execs. After all, most of us don't make salaries over $100k , nor can we ever imagine a million dollar bonus, or the greed and sense of entitlement to even demand more.
Wall Street exec - fortune 500 type executives as a class; you'll get no sympathy from me.
"The slimy dirt of WS reaches new heights. An emergency bailout, paid for by the People, and they think that we paid for them to continue living their corrupt lifestyle, and that we will carry the burden for their horrific business practices. Not only should they give the bonuses back, they should be put on trial, and locked up."
"DiNapoli’s office estimates that the bonus pool paid by the securities industry to its employees in New York City totaled $18.4 billion in 2008 based on personal income tax collections and other factors, including industry revenue and expense trends. This represents a decline of 44 percent compared with the $32.9 billion paid in 2007. The decline is the largest on record in absolute dollars and the largest percentage decline in more than 30 years, but the size of the bonus pool is still the sixth largest on record. "
http://www.osc.state.ny.us/press/releases/jan09...
Guess what? Those that work for divisions of Wall St. firms that failed misterably got canned and got zero in bonuses. The reason why you stupid behind can still get use your ATM card or credit card while trying to bribe Cippriani's folks to get your sorry ass seated is because the folks from the other divisions of the banks are keeping things together, you stpid clueless Obama's socialism worshipping dumb-ass.
They're actually subversive, giving "Socialism" a good name.
Or are they just a bunch of clowns trying to get their names in a new book such as "The Smartest Guys in the Room"
Some of these companies were busy shoveling money out the door in bonuses as they were begging the government for a bailout. Therefore, I'm not convinced that those bonuses should have been paid. And now, they won't even tell us where the first $350 B of the bailout money went...huh. Corrupt companies, hopelessly inept politicians...great combination.
I've got my pitchfork ready, for when we storm the gated communities.
I think you need to get your facts straight and your spelling correct its Al Qaeda .... got it? Living in America means that Rich is within his rights to say someone should be shot, were your panties in a bunch because he offered to do it?
I think you misinterpreted my reference - I am referring to a Bravo TV channel show series called "The Real Housewives of Atlanta, New York or Orange County" and using that as a parallel to the behavior of some of our corporate 'masters of the universe' - People like myself and perhaps you have nothing to do with their antics and loose fiscal and moral values yet this headline stuff is what the enemy sees and then uses as propaganda against us.
I am a happily married man w/ 2 kids who has hung my ass out in Iraq on 2 tours so far. The only locals I have met are Iraqi Army soldiers and I only have the utmost respect for them and average Iraqi citizen who has to put up with the fringe....so I didnt have time or inclination to meet any "young women in Iraq" to have sex with -as you put it.
The continuing strength of our country relies on the average american housewife - God bless her-as she is the glue that keeps the nuclear family together (I have a great housewife who gets it done and kept it together while I was downrange) . The housewives on the Bravo show are not 'real'.......
You may be right on anger management, but I get on fire when I come back to the USA and see the damage that has been done by our own. Others have referred to the problematic Wall Street execs (not all of them) being "drawn and quartered" - I would like to see some of these clowns get their office door kicked down, rifles pointed at them, zip tied and taken away to do time - there were crimes committed here -instead they are sentenced to "house arrest" in their nice pad or chastized in a news article. It is no different from me or better a policeman pointing a firearm at a mugger stealing a persons wallet -but this time they reached into about 300,000,000 peoples wallets.
When every American takes responsibility for their actions, lives for something more than themselves and bands together with his/her fellow American then this country can get back on track. I am glad and fortunate to have the privilege to defend the average american housewife. I will fight to the death to protect my country against all enemies, foreign and domestic. That is the oath.
By your remarks I know you read my response "Douglas 7 hours ago" to "Arthur 1017 8 hours ago". It's good to hear you are trustworthy and have a great family where everyone supports one another.
I am sorry but I've never seen or even heard of the Bravo TV show you mentioned. Perhaps that is my fault. However, you should know I don't have time for everything. Lately, I've spent a lot of time reading articles on the Internet in an effort to understand what has really happened with our economy. I've been doing this for the past few weeks after spending the previous few weeks channel surfing the news and various programs on the TV with limited success. Eventually the information provided on TV proved to be less and less limited and thus, for me, raised more questions than provided answers. It was if the television media was trying to temper and even hide the truth for fear of causing the public to panic. And so I turned to the Internet.
From the Internet (and public radio) I have come to learn that the problem is not just with some of the Wall Street honchos. Bad Wall Street honchos make great headlines and sensational news. But their misdeeds are not the sole cause for the current sorry state of our economy.
Apparently, all of us who have been cajoled in one way or another by either high pressure or low pressure salesmanship to obtain a credit card, a debit card, a car loan, a payday loan, a home mortgage or any other loan we really couldn't afford over the past 30 or so years have contributed to the problem. Our appetites for material consumption have gradually become larger and larger than our pocket books. We have become a nation of debtors rather than savers.
How many people do you know that are not up to their ears in debt for all of the things that they have bought? And how many of those even have a penny in a savings account much less even own one single stock on Wall Street? How many have saved for a rainy day?
Where is the common sense? If you can't pay off your credit card each and every month to avoid the interest payments then why have the credit card? The credit card should be treated as cash and paid off in full every month.
And how many politicians are now stepping up to the plate and taking responsibility for what they have sold to the people? And what about the developers, realtors, mortgage lenders, appraisers, lawyers, accountants and flip artists who all worked in concert with the politicians over the last several years to sell every American on the dream that everyone should and could live in a house?
I can recall radio, TV, newspaper and magazine ads propagating the myth that it was now cheaper to own a home than to live in an apartment. All you had to do was obtain a readily available interest-only mortgage. Lie upon lie has been heaped on the public over the past several years by all of these so-called professions.
I even stumbled on an article which explained how many Hispanic politicians organized in concert with Hispanic Realtors nationwide with one of our most notorious financial institutions, Countrywide Financial, to get as many Hispanics into homes as possible using whatever means necessary. And why? Because their research determined that 68% of caucasians in America lived in houses versus only 47% for Hispanics. And so they did everything in their power to close the gap.
Unfortunately, they did many unethical and and even illegal things to accomplish their goal. It is not surprising that all of them are now remaining silent. Afterall, they have all lined their pockets one sale or one property or one commission at a time to the detriment of $8,000,000 buyers who now cannot pay the increase spelled out in their adjustable rate mortgage. Notice that a disproportionate number of foreclosures are occurring in the States of Florida, Arizona, Nevada and California.
How many times did I hear the Mayor of Chicago say he wanted to make Chicago the most expensive City in America and that he wanted to make Chicago the condo capitol of America? And how many times did I hear him say that it was the Yuppies he catered to that were paying the bills in the form of vastly increased real estate taxes. Never mind all of the low income neighborhoods that were transformed by gentrification to high income neighborhoods.
And never mind what the developers were doing. For the most part we were told they could be trusted. We didn't need government Inspectors monitoring their work because who knew better how to build than they did. They were the pals of City Hall. No one was allowed by the politicians to get in the way of the realtors and developers because in the end that meant a multi-fold increase in sorely needed Real Estate Tax revenue. In the end, on top of everything else, many people have paid for and bankrupted buying overvalued junk.
Wall Street is not solely to blame for any of this. They did not create the massive consumer mortgage debt. They simply got stuck with it because that is how the mortgage system has always worked. Wall Street is just the end player in a very long chain of mortgage lending.
However, I am still confused about why someone didn't blow the whistle a long time ago. It now seems like this whole thing has become like a nasty game of musical chairs where Wall Street has been caught holding the bag and so must take all of the blame.
I might agree with your idea of kicking doors down, pointing rifles, zip tying and prison for all those who committed these crimes except it really is not exactly clear where to draw the line. You might have to take every single person involved in the so-called "housing industry" to Court. How many million citizens would that amount to? And oh, I forgot about all of those accountants who review our income tax returns. You know there are over 350,000 of these citizens working in that profession. I am sure that many of them realized a long time ago that it didn't make sense for anyone earning less than $80,000 a year to own a $250,000 house or condo and so on. Are they guilty too because they didn't speak up? Maybe half of the people in our beautiful country are guilty.
Surely you want to obtain a fair trial for all of the guilty parties in a Court of Law. Afterall, what you are fighting for is the Rule of Law and not the Rule of Violence? Isn't that correct?
I think the truth is there are too many guilty parties to be counted. Whether the number is several million or a hundred million is beside the point.
I think it is patently unfair that those of us who know how to balance their checkbook, intelligently manage their credit cards, live within their means, pay all of their taxes fairly and on time that we will soon have to pay excessively higher taxes for years to come covering all of the reckless financial behavior of the rest of us. It is sort of like having a family member who is consumed by one or more of the vices of alcohol, drugs, gambling or paid sex to the detriment and financial ruin of the entire family. Except this time the entire family is the entire country.
Like most of us I worry every day not only about how bad things have become but how much worse they might become. Nobody really seems to know. I only hope there is enough money, common sense and will to work left to save us all from being sucked into a vast pool of poverty.
I hope you and your family will survive this mess. In fact, I hope we all will and when it is over I hope all of us and not just some of will know what it takes to keep America strong.
Many on Wall Street have grown accustomed to a certain culture and pay. I find it equally loathsome that there is some belief they work harder than the average Joe. That argument is as foolish as saying all Wall Streeters are greedy and should be burned at the stake. Let me be clear that I will leave for greener pastures, *if* it is available. If it is not, then I will have to adjust, and I will. My hope is for whatever the future brings in terms of my own compensation, it will continue to be market driven and set by transparent means. Paying someone like me is quite transparent. You can go to a job board and see what range of salary and bonus I get, and then compete for my job. If enough can do it as well or better, my stock goes down, it's that simple. With a senior exec, it's not so simple. There is no job board for that. These are closed door hires, opaque to say the least. You have an armada of lawyers, HR cronies, and board lackeys ready to define success in a way that makes it nearly inevitable.
I think going forward instead of trying to rip apart a system that has worked for more than 90% of the last 150 years, rip off our nose to spite our faces, we should work for transparency. I am uncertain of the ideal or best approach going forward, but I am absolutely sure that increased regulation will do little to nothing. If your goal is simply to make Wall Street less rich, then it's easy, you don't even need regulation. Simply install government mandates on institutions, have them perform their will, and limit their rewards. To my mind, forcing transparency at all levels, increasing accountability at especially senior levels, and preventing any firm to reach the moral hazard scale like Fannie/Freddie/Citi/BofA/etc, would be far more prudent a fix than going in with a hack saw because people are calling for blood.
For those that like to think Revolutionary, don't use the French, that is misplaced historic nostalgia. If you think it was a success, you perhaps should reread their history. Do you think "Égalité" came to them after they beheaded Louis XVI and company? It ushered in a reign of terror like most bloody revolutions do. Since then, the French have had 5 republics (i.e. 5 constitutions). Their class struggles have never gone away as is evident any time the government fails to provide some entitlement or service to the satisfaction of "les citoyens".
I understand that certain historic blunders call for historically harsh measures. However, the law of unintended consequences never fails to exact its toll. Unfortunately, reason never wins the day, and the more likely event of hasty, reactionary events and policies will create an inefficiency that will last for decades to come.
There were laws and regulations that would have prevented this exact situation, they were rolled back by Bush & Clinton due to greed. (Just like wanting bonuses is greed, nothing else. ) Bonuses, if anything, should be performance based. The only success that the bailed out companies have had is proving their econ theories are wrong.
If u dnt giv me my bns, im takin yr # out f my faves list
and yr cloths r ugly too
I agree. Call their bluffs. I would love to be a fly on the wall at some of the few job interviews that would actually happen.
"So, why did you leave your last company?"
"Well, they didn't pay me a bonus."
"Nice to meet you, Mr. Applicant. We'll keep your resume on file. NEXT!"
These people need to get there bankrupt companies shuttered so we can allow the productive economy to expand into the space taken up by the parasites
The way that it has been done, the banks are either hoarding the money, or using it to buyout other banks (or give their top brass bonuses). It isn't freeing up credit, or maintaining the liquidity of the banks.