The Washington Independent - Latest Comments in Gay Marriage Advocates Sue To Block Prop 8 in California

Re: Gay Marriage Advocates Sue To Block Prop 8 in California

Todd — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:37:09 -0000

Anne, stand by yourself. Most of us know what the sexually retarded want, they want to spit in the face of heterosexuals and their beliefs. And they will do it any way they can.

Re: Gay Marriage Advocates Sue To Block Prop 8 in California

Independent Mind — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:44:59 -0000

Justice for all - I think you've taken some liberties with what Alexis was getting at .....yes, his point was that when the majority have the ability to affect change (good or bad) over all people, it is not freedom. He was trying to get people to understand what "True" freedom is. BUT he also advocated a sense of morality and self governance (see restraint) on the very people who were to have this freedom. It didn't mean you got to do anything at anytime. There are consequences to actions, no matter how free you are. So in order to live free, you have to be responsible about your decisions.

At the point you do not have this self restraint, you have by proxy awarded the state the ability to govern over you and strip you of the ability to live "True Freedom". Our society today is a living testament to a lack of restraint. If this was only about Gay Marriage, that is one thing, it is a whole nother when they flaunt it in the city streets in inappropriate clothing for children to see. This is about validation of their lifestyle to them, plain and simple. Take something that was meaningful of the very people who oppose your lifestyle and try and make it your own. How much more of a slap in the face can you get than that? And then call it "Hate Speech" when they oppose it....how clever. But a mute point. This will only serve to destroy their cause, not strengthen it.

Never the less I digress, and the facts at the end of the day still remains the same: 1.) Our country works on a majoirty system. I f you don't like it , leave. You have the freedom to do so. Enjoy it, not everyone has it. 2.) The people have spoken. When you try and tamper with that by using a few elitist to say it is ok when the majority said it is not, well, I would contend it is you that is flaming the fires of discontent ment by the masses and are sowing the seeds of conflict in our society.

Re: Gay Marriage Advocates Sue To Block Prop 8 in California

Justice for all... — Sat, 08 Nov 2008 21:39:27 -0000

It will forever be absurd to put issues of social justice to a majority vote in any society that has created those same social injustices. This "flaw" of the democratic system was noted by classic sociologist Alexis de Tocqueville as early as the mid 1800's, which he referred to as the "tyranny of the majority".
You don't "ask" a majority bent on treating any minority unfairly if they should continue to do so. One-million-and-one reasons will be generated by the majority to justify why things should remain the way they are; and amongst so many of those arguments, some might even be persuasive and sound in their reasoning. It takes really formidable and enlightened minds to be able to see through an injustice when you are not the one experiencing its negative effects. Beyond this, it takes even stronger courage to stand up and do what's right.
Many gay commentators have asked why President elect Obama has publicly gone on record saying he believes marriage should only be between “a man and a woman”, but yet he is unable to explain why he believes this to be so. Vice-President elect Biden holds the same position. And yet, Biden also appeared on the at least one television show saying he did not support proposition 8. The same scenario played out with California Republican Governor Arnold Schortznegger, who also did not support proposition 8. This same question could be asked of most of the more progressive main-stream politicians who take the same apparently contradictory position.
But the answer to this "contradiction" is simpler than it appears. What these politicians and others like them demonstrate is that they "know" and understand the social injustice in denying equal rights to a marginalized group in society, but are unable to muster the courage to do “what's right”. To be fair, however, we have to take into consideration that if they did “what's right", they stand on the edge of committing political suicide, which would not benefit those who seek social justice.
What is an oppressed group to do in this conundrum? The first strategy is, to the extent possible, NEVER let issues of social justice be "voted" on by an unjust majority. These issues have to be taken through the judicial system, where ideally some of the brightest and (hopefully) more enlightened members of society are not directly subject to the whim of the "majority"; which is inherently the case for elected politicians. This is why historically we have traditionally seen the courts being the ones making bold decisions of social justice (i.e. Brown vs. Board of Education). While activists are obviously taking this route via state courts, this issue will not truly be solved until it is taken on the federal level to the U.S. Supreme Court. The political climate is getting better and will continue to be so for the next few years. Strategies should be developed to prepare for the most ideal timing and take the fight to the appropriate realm.
While progressive elected politicians have to remain "in the closet" and say what they know must be said to appease the masses, gay activists must understand what lies behind their actions. This understanding is crucial for the ultimate triumph of social justice to occur. Although the argument has already been made that elected politicians will not be the ones directly doing “the right thing”, their support is crucial in paving the road to get there.

Re: Gay Marriage Advocates Sue To Block Prop 8 in California

Independent Mind — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 14:40:35 -0000

Joe - now that's funny.

Re: Gay Marriage Advocates Sue To Block Prop 8 in California

Joe — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 01:31:05 -0000

The biggest debate re: Prop 8 seems to be about what tangibly would happen if it did or did not pass. The British press painted a pretty fascinating picture of the direction in which allowing gay marriage would lead us.

http://irrationalpublicradio.com/pe6.html

Re: Gay Marriage Advocates Sue To Block Prop 8 in California

Independent Mind — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 16:14:19 -0000

DFT1247 - You show youre ignorance as well by not addressing the topic at hand. Did I say the government treating everyone equally was wrong? NO I said it was stupid to bring them into the equation on a topic they have no right to govern on. By proxy, stepping on their own toes in what they were tryig to accomplish. Stop trying to twist someone elses words to say something they didn't. It makes you looks stupid. I am married, come from people who are still married and it does hold some value to me. By your argument, that's like saying since there are so many murders and it is more common place now and accepted, that makes it ok. What a nonsensical argument.

Based upon your comments - Heres my wild guess on you- your from a broken home, close to neither of your parents, and find it hard to understand a commitment to another human being that binds you for life.

Are you saying married people asked "marriage" to be added to the governments list of "reasons" to be governed by the uncle sam? If you are - you have to be one of the dumbest, uniformed bloggers known to man.

Marriage for many years didn't even get the tax break many did as the overall write offs. You try to make this about everything else it IS NOT about. I don't have any problem with inter racial marriage, I don't even have a problem if your gay, that's your business. But to try and stake a claim to something that is meaningless to you...why? The tax break? Do you think it will vinidcate your choices? Do you think it validates your lifestyle? Give me a break. This is an instiution, clear and simple that for millenium had no meaning to people who chose this lifestyle. Ask yourself - why now?

Brain washed....Dipshit, I don't even go to an organized church. I don't have any time for organized religion. It's a business and a racket at that. I love how you try to "pigeon hole" me with your "enlightened" nature which just shows your quite the opposite of what you pose to actually be. I REALLY do not like that you presuppose I HATE something. That is really not for you to say at all. I have an opinion, based upon the history of marriage and my faith. Don't like it? So what. Makle me a lesser person than you ? Doubt it....the simple truth is the MAJORITY of people hold the same opinion and it is time we stop apoligizing for our point of view. You certainly haven't cornered the market on intellectual thought obviously.

Oh - and Finally, I was out your way in Oregon for a 1 year contract doing an systems implementation. Let me tell you, your version of "Freedom to do what ever you want" is very interesting. I don't know that I have ever seen so many homeless Meth heads in my life (Worst in the country as they told me while there....). I tried to help them, only to watch them but more drugs or booze with it. Tried buying food but no dice, their choice I guess. That my friend is life with no boundaries. Welcome to the age you are ushering in.

Re: Gay Marriage Advocates Sue To Block Prop 8 in California

Jack — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 16:04:07 -0000

Oh that's it and I have held my peace during this whole election and I have been criticized and been called a bigot every time I stand up for something that I believe in. A good majotity of you people who oppose proposition 8 be whoever you are are the intolerant ones calling me and the rest who stand up for tradition marriage a hater and using words that nobody should have spoken to them in such a vulgar way. Those who get married and then divorced is not the issue so stop bringing it up. And a child needs a mother and a father no matter ehich way you slice it. I don't give a crap how good of a parent you are the point is that it has been like this in every society for thousands of years. Ever since the beginning of time. So treat my family, my friends, and me like human beings why don't ya. This has to do with marriage. Period. And though you say it has nothing to do with marriage rather fundamental rights. I would say from the looks of things that it has everything to do with marriage since that is what you people want right? So stop changing you views every five seconds and get it straight. No pun intnded.

Re: Gay Marriage Advocates Sue To Block Prop 8 in California

Anne Wynne — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 15:12:56 -0000

It is time for us, the straight allies, to stand up and stand with our gay and lesbian friends who are being systematically denied the most basic rights and recognition – the very things we, in the heterosexual world, take for granted day after day.

Re: Gay Marriage Advocates Sue To Block Prop 8 in California

Jewish Matchmaker — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 15:06:45 -0000

This issue will probably go on and on forever.

Steve
Jewish Matchmaking
http://www.myglobalmatch.com

Re: Gay Marriage Advocates Sue To Block Prop 8 in California

CJ — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 14:35:15 -0000

Gays should have the same rights as straights. People are people. Period.

My opinion: http://cjbruce.com/gay-rights-are-my-rights-the...

Re: Gay Marriage Advocates Sue To Block Prop 8 in California

dft1247 — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 13:42:14 -0000

lol.... Does anyone else find the name "independent mind" ironic? I love how you say that the government treating everyone equally is a bad thing. How about this, lets propose a bill that makes it so that Christians and Mormons aren't allowed to get married. I bet that would get quite an outcry from people like yourself, dont you think? I guess the fact that you actually believe in god and "the sanctity of marriage" speaks novels about the world that YOU live in. What's the divorce rate at? 50%? 70+% in Hollywood? Yeah, that's real sacred. Good thing that you are keeping it from being "tainted" from the likes of gays.

The fundamental problem here is that the government has mixed church and state with offering benefits to married couples. YES, YOU ARE RIGHT, marriage STARTED OUT as a religious union but as we have evolved as a society (and the religions are a little slow to follow) it has become more than just something that the religions are participating in governing. It is now a legal matter and when you are making laws, sadly, you can't just exclude a particular group of people just because you don't like them. That's not how law works, sorry man.

I don't care what you think of gay people, they are try to vote Discrimination into law. That is a fact. I'm not even gay nor do I live in California, it just pisses me off to see all of this retard rhetoric and LIES about the gay community. "It's being taught in our schools!" that is a great way to try and scare level headed people into voting for such a hateful bill but regretably that is not true. After going through the public school system in Oregon (a very liberal state) I only knew of 1 teach who even mentioned homosexuality and that was because he was challenged on it by a student and all he said is that he had a friend who he liked before he knew he was gay so why should knowing that he was gay change the content of his character. These ads about kids in elementary school learning about homosexuality are just desperate attempts by the conservative extreme to stop progress.

Let me guess, do you also support a ban on interracial marriage?
If it is a sanctified union with god how come Atheists can get married?

I know that you have been brain-washing by your religion to think that this particular group of people are "evil" but when your children's children look back on this they will be just as disgusted with the hate brought on through these events as we are by those of the civil rights movement for equal rights for African-Americans (i know that African-Americans suffered through much worse for their rights but they paved the way for everyone else who will follow them).

Re: Gay Marriage Advocates Sue To Block Prop 8 in California

ajm8127 — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 09:58:13 -0000

But if you don't believe in a god, then marriage is just simply a tax write off.

Re: Gay Marriage Advocates Sue To Block Prop 8 in California

Independent Mind — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 09:24:22 -0000

This article is absolutely comical - at best. Daphne needs a history lesson on marriage. Marriage is a religious act wher a man and a woman wish to join together in a sanctioned union with God. If your married, you might want to go back and revisit your vows. That is the REAL authority behind marriage. There is no religion in the WORLD that truly recognizes gay marriage (within the scope of Gods true intention of marriage). thus their eager attempt ot have it somehow legitimizede by the government.

The worst thing ANY religion did was allow government intervention over marriage. It was never theirs to determine right or wrong over. Christians got duped when they tried to get the government to help define marriage as a union between a man and a woman. Stupid. Anytime you seek the governments "approval" and redress of an issue, they have to treat all parties equally. They should have seen that one coming. They fell right into the strategy of the gay marriage advocates.

Why are they so concerned about how it is viewed? Say your married- we don't give a crap. If this is somehow thew only way you feel you be legitimzed in your relationship, you have much deeper and overwhelming issues to deal with. They are more concerned with how they are viewed rather than the inherent inconsistencies they seem to be living out. Say your married, say your engaged, say your gay - NO ONE CARES. Just repsect the people voice when it is carried out.. When you fight that, what ever your cause is, your going to lose thecwar. Even if you win this battle.